First from the prophet Jeremiah who speaks of being called, being forced to become a prophet of God, despite his strongest protestation:
If I say, "I will not mention him or speak any more in his name," there is in my heart as it were a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I am weary with holding it in and I cannot.
And then in the Gospel of Matthew the same theme of urgency appears. Jesus is addressing his disciples and says to them:
What I tell you in the dark, utter in the light; and what you hear whispered, proclaim from the housetops.
To my hearing, what these words seem to proclaim is this: that whenever you and I are given an awareness of the extent of God's passionate love for us - even for the most fleeting moment - whenever this happens to us, we have no choice but to proclaim it.
Like Jeremiah, we simply can't hold it in. We have to speak it out. We have to act it or live it out in whatever way we possibly can. God's love is compelling, and without such a response from us, that love then goes its homeless way. God's love needs to be completed by our response. So to complete God's love is our responsibility. So when you and I look at the world around us, at the heartbreaking suffering of it and at the heartbreaking beauty of it, are we able to refuse our calling? Are we able not to love?
God needs us:
- God needs our eyes to see through
- and our hands to work through
- and our voices to speak the words of comfort and companionship.
- God needs our tears to express the passion of his heart.
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Does God NEED us? My first reaction is to say he doesn’t NEED us, but he WANTS us. He created us out of his desire to share the glory of his creation with him. Not because he NEEDED to share it with anyone, but because he WANTED to.
Bear with me as my thoughts ramble a bit: God created the universe and said “it was good.” Because God’s nature is Love, he wanted to share what was good with something “in his image,” so he created us. And because his love was perfect (and not forced/imposed, which would be imperfect), he gave us free will…the choice to determine what we would do, on our own. Of course, we chose the one path that would lead us away from God. Still, in his perfect love, he WANTS us to be with him.
Here’s where it gets complicated…because our sin separates us from God, and because his perfect love demands that we maintain our own free will, he uses us to do the work of his kingdom here on earth. So I guess in that sense, he does NEED us….but he only needs us to the extent that he WANTS us. When we choose to become Christ followers, we accept the free gift of grace that God offers. Doing so sets the Holy Spirit to work in us, and compels us to do God’s work in God’s kingdom. It comes back to the comment I made from Ephesians in the previous post…that we are saved by grace through faith to do good works: “He creates each of us by Christ Jesus to join him in the work he does, the good work he has gotten ready for us to do, work we had better be doing.” (Eph. 2:10 MSG). (This also, by the way, points to our obligation to use our spiritual gifts to bring people closer to God.)
thank you brother
When people are in love they often say the strangest things. Some people say, for example, “I need you more than life itself,” and other such strange things. This is not a factual statement, but a statement of longing, hoping, desiring the other. Obviously we don’t need anyone to exist, but we do need others to live.
God is love, but God doesn’t need us in the sense that he had to create us to exist, or that he needs us because He is powerless to make changes without us. God needs us because He longs to give His heart to us. God does need our hands and feet because he wants us to grow into the kind of people who will make a difference.
needed it..thank you God bless you
Isn’t “need,” in this case a two-way street? Don’t we need Him while He needs us? Isn’t this like a friendship in which each needs the other to make the friendship whole and complete?
But why, kettle, when God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent does He “need” us — we who are sin-filled and mere human beings, why us? When God can proclaim His glory Himself, why go through us? Why does He keep us around? Why do we matter to Him? I know what you have said above, but why not destroy us like in the flood only with fire and start all over again? Is there more to what you are saying as to why God needs us? Why keep those of us who are here now around? What does He hope from us and for us?
Why do you need Prince? As a well educated, healthy adult female, why don’t you exert you indendence and proclaim your wisdom? Because love is with giving part of ourselves, part of the control, to another. Sometimes that love is rejected and not returned the way we had hoped. So part of the answer is that God wants to be loved, needs to be loved, and longs to be loved by creatures that do not always return His love.
“Love hopes all things, believes all things, bears all things. Love never fails” 1 Cor. 13
Boy, you had me going there for a minute, kettle.
Isn’t it amazing how the written word can carry a connotation not present when the same words are spoken. Consequently, there is a danger in the written word especially, email comments. When I read your first rhetorical question, I wasn’t sure where you were going. I didn’t get much help from the second one either. But numerous readings of your entire response later, I appreciate the analogy for the clarity that it and the remainder of your comments provided.
As Prince does with me, I pray that I will remain loyal to God and continue to love Him with my whole heart and being; and I pray that when He calls, I will come.
Not sure about His wanting sloppy, wet kisses, though.
Thank you, kettle, for affirming and justifying the frequent and numerous tears that I shed while I am reading my Bible and other religious books like those by Max Lucado; while I am listening to my pastor delivering his sermons and/or speaking on Sunday mornings; and when, among others, I am looking at Christian artwork by Greg Olsen.
Now, I won’t feel so foolish when the tears flow so readily. I’ll just remind myself that God made me exactly as I am in accordance with His will for my life and that my tears are not about me but about His heart.
Does God need me? Probably not.
Does God want me? YES!
God gave us free will to choose him, to want him, to need him. He not forcing us he’s allowing us to choose him. When someone chooses to love me that’s the best thing in the whole world so when we choose to love God it’s the best thing for God. He wants us that way!
Love to me is a verb. It’s not a noun, you have to “do” love. Just saying “I love you” means nothing but showing it is wonderful. Doing the things God wants us to do is showing love. Being his eyes, hands and voice is love and it’s what God wants. And that’s what I need.
kettle — I’m curious about somethig — in the Matthew passage, the word “dark.” Any idea why Jesus spoke the word “dark”? Any possibility that the orginal Greek and/or Hebrew meant something else and that the translators for King James chose to use the word “dark” instead? I ask because I find it curious that Christ would say, “What I tell you in the dark, utter in the light.” Why is that curious to me? Yes, I understand antithesis; and the fact that there is an antithetical contrast in the verse as is born out in the remainder of the passage with the usage of the words “whisper” and “proclaim.” But…when I read the first part of the verse up to the comma, I sense a negative connotation, almost an evilness, if you will. I just have difficulty imaging Christ sitting in the “dark” and among the “dark” and talking to His disciples. And no, I am not taking it literally as in dark and night. Wait…is that the idea? Is Christ “in” and “among” the dark — the evil, the evilness of the world — when He tells of the light that must be “proclaimed on the housetops”? Back to the original question: Any idea as to why the word “dark” is used in this verse in conjunction with Christ, the Good Shepherd, the Holy One, when, as substanitated in so many places in the Bible, the word “dark” is associated with the Devil and the connotation of evil and evilness.
PM,
I don’t know if this helps, but the verse before that passage (which is Matthew 10:27…I had to look it up on biblegateway.com), says “…There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known.” In The Message, that whole passage says: “Don’t be intimidated. Eventually everything is going to be out in the open, and everyone will know how things really are. So don’t hesitate to go public now.”
This seems to indicate Christ’s use of “dark” in the NIV version more along the antithetical lines you discussed. (Wow! It’s great to have a discussion with a fellow English major where I can use words like “antithetical!”) Hidden/disclosed; concealed/made known; dark/light; whispered/proclaimed. There’s clearly a literary pattern there. I don’t see any direct connotation to evil, but of course these things run about as deep as we wish to delve into them, don’t they?!
The Greek word for darkness used in Matthew was skotia. This word is a “metaphor used of ignorance of divine things, and its associated wickedness, and the resultant misery in hell.”
John 8:12 uses the same word for darkness. As does John 12:46.
Thank you, Joe, for your insight and for taking the time to search in various sources for clarity. Your thoughts help in my understanding of the word’s use. Hope kettle continues giving us much “food-for-thought” so that we can continue talking, thinking, delving, and using words like “antithetical.”
Likewise, thank you, Barbara, for information and the clarity that it provides.
I think “skotia” even deepens the antithetical theme. “What I tell you [when you are] in ignorance of divine things, steeped in wickedness [etc.], utter in the light…” I don’t think Christ is delivering this message in wickedness, but I can see one possible interpretation being that he is pointing out the wickedness inherit in those to whom he is speaking. As I said, we can take these things about as deep as we want to take them!
I’ve got to admit, I used to use all the different interpetations of the Bible as one of my cop-outs for not buying into “church.” But in the last few years I’ve really come to appreciate the richness those various interpretations brings to our faith.
Thanks, PM and Barbara, for the enlightening discussion.
wow that was good — really good.
Now about the issue of “does God/Jesus NEED us”
Acts 17:24-25Vanity –all is vanity…
if we think God needs us where will that lead?Shall we then determine we are doing God a favor perhaps?Psalm 50 speaks to this subject clearly.If I (God were hungry I would not tell thee- for the world and it’s contents are mine)
God loves us — let us hold fast to this Truth
oops –i forgot to mention > God loves us in spite of us not because of us…
God cannot disown Himself.
So yes, in a sense, God needs Christians!
Cory Jenk says “God cannot disown Himself. So . . . God needs Christians.”
Does this equate Christians to God?
Thank you for your help.
Student
Perhaps more importantly, God is complete within Himself. To suggest that God NEEDS people [Christians or otherwise] is to give dominant power to people over God. God does not Need people to be complete, but in the overflow of love, creates, gives, shares, and protects His children. If God needed people, can there be accountability, judgement, or Hell [separation from God]? Probably not.
Steve said “God does not Need people to be complete.”
At the risk of repeating Pastor Warren’s question, why did God create people?
In case this is the same question, did Pastor Warren get the correct answer (worshiping God; serving and loving people and God; etc.) in Pastor Warren’s “Purpose Driven Life” book?
Why do we exhale? In order to be alive, it is a natural part of our living process.
Why did God create people? I order to love them. God is love and to create and love is a natural extention of God’s character.
Warren’s book is about our response to the character of God. How do we love God?
Worship — a personal relationship of adoration and praise
Relationship – by loving what God loves
Discipleship – By knowing more about the One we love
Ministry – by working, side-by-side with the One who calls us and gives us the abilities of time, talents and treasure
Evangelism – by telling others of this amazing relationship that has transformed our lives.
Because Pastor Warren’s book is sub titled something like what on earth am I here for (i.e. God given purpose), does the book’s content (as Kettle summarized) answer the sub title question?
Is it correct to equate “our response to the character of God” (i.e. loving God) to the reason God created people (i.e. people’s God given purpose)?
I think it is. We were created for a relationship and relationships involve responses. We respond to one another in a variety of way.
knowledge, intimacy, romance, gentleness, affirmations, serving, etc.
We respond to God in the categories Warren outlines
Worship
Fellowship with the family of God
Discipleship – to know God
Ministry – serve God
Evangelism – to share the love relationship
What are your thoughts?
Things like this make me upset. how can anyone say they know what God needs or wants? I don’t mean to be disrespectful towards anyone’s faith, but I don’t understand how people believe in God and constantly put words in his mouth or make up things based on what they think God would want. Anytime you think God is talking to you, it’s only your perception, your brain working based on your interpretation of the bible, and just like every other book ever written there will never be absolute truths just perceptions based on how you read and felt when you read the book. Unless you have been in the complete Glory of God which I believe isn’t possible in this physical vessel (because God is almighty and omnipresent), then you can’t say that you know why God has done anything that has been. People, stop talking for God.
It certainly would be disrespectful and down right dangerous to say that I had special inside knowledge of what God wants, thinks, or feels. What I am trying to do, however, is share what God has already told us in Scriptures about Himself, us and our relationship. If I suggest something that God has not already revealed through the Prophets and Saints, please let me know. But for us not to think about God’s character is to simply ignor God altogether.
For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the LORD, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future. Jeremiah 29:11
There are absolute truths. They are found in the Bible. Without absolute truths there would be chaos, anarchy, total lawlessness.
Does God really want people to stop talking for Him? He used Aaron and Moses to speak to His people; He used the Prophets to proclaim the coming of Christ, The Messiah of the Jews & Gentiles.
Can God use me? Yes! Can God use you? Yes! Does God need me and you? Yes…Jesus said “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen (Matthew 28:18-20)
He also says “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.” John 10:27
Kettle asked “[w]hat are your thoughts” about God’s purpose for people. Hopefully without putting words in God’s mouth (“please[‘s]” prohabition), some concerns come up.
Assuming (i.e. others are allowed to question) God gave all people the same purpose, there seems to be plenty who fail God’s purpose?
Making the same assumption, do people provide God any value that God could not have just as easily received from the three Divine personalities and/or heavenly multitudes?
Making the same assumption, why does a just God seem to give people different levels of ability to fulfill this God given purpose?
We are God’s poetry. In Eph 2:10 we are told that we are God’s “workmanship”, a word that means “poem”…. created in Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared IN ADVANCE for us to do. Wow! God created ME with something specific in mind! YOU TOO! EVERYONE! Not just something in general, but something he actually planned that we would do for Him… but alas, he gives us a free will and most of us will just choose not to live our life as God purposed. God won’t make us do anything! We have to choose to seek His will in our lives and thus fulfill our purpose. Isn’t it wonderful to know that God loves you so much that he chose you long before you were ever born, and specifically designed you for a mission?
Is the good works plan based on the commandments?
Great threads. Am myself a pastor and would like to say that God needs us in the same way we need each other….Maslow tells us that “belonging” is one of the basic human needs…We belong to each other, God in us so to speak..so to think of God “out there” needing us to pay attention is not helpful…Rather we belong to God “in his image” thus we are like lovers perpetually in love and “needing” each other (you are the air I breathe stuff) The romantics and mystics have it all together..we in the post-post-modern world are in bad shape I am afraid…We don’t need God!
I have a very healthy relationship with my husband. He is sweet to me, and we are madly in love. I would say that before I knew my husband, I had no need for him, or at least didn’t realize I had a need of anyone-other than the occasional twange of loneliness. Now that I am in love with him-I can’t imagine my life without him.
I feel that my Heavenly Bridegroom (see Isaiah 54) is the same way. He moves at the sound of my voice. (2 Chron 33:13-19)
I am glad He needs me! I want to partner with Him in His purposes.
I agree with you completely. I particularly like you analogy of your marriage relationship. thanks
God created us to show forth His goodness. This implies (for me) that God DOES need us. We and all of creation come from God. We are extensions in a way, OF God, and it could be said that in creating us and the universe, God established a way or venue that He might dialogue with Himself. Goodness, and “being” itself, are non-existent if they have no way to be displayed, contrasted, or manifested. This is akin to the old question, “If a tree fell in the forest, would there be a sound if no one was there to hear it?” God is the “tree” falling, and we are the “hearers” who note this and respond to it.
I do not suggest that God created us and all things because of a “need” on His part that implies “deficiency”. Rather, I see creation as being a natural “outcome” of the volition of God’s being and will. A creative artist has a “need” to sculpt or paint. If the need isn’t fulfilled, the creative impulse is void. When it is fulfilled, the creation of the artist-creator is something that is both apart from himself and OF himself. So it is with God, the universe and humanity. We exist because God exists, and by existing, “show forth His goodness”. But to whom? To each other? Or to God Himself? I believe, to and for both.
I think he doesent need us but he loves us so much!
if we be bad men or good men,we are same for him.
he is the best friend,and the best friend gives whole things for friend way,but sometimes we forget it.
Just a question: If God is love, then doesn’t love need something onto which it can lavish that love? I mean God is so full of love that earth and humanity were created from the overflow of God’s creatiive nature. I don’t mean that God is incomplete without us, then we would be great than God, but that God overflows in His divine fullness into the lives of those who will receive His Spirit.
Does God need us?
Does a Sunset need to be seen? Does a Sunset need to be shared? Does glory need to be beholden?
Who takes their light and puts it in a place where its brightness cannot escape?
God is worthy and his glory is to be witnessed.
It is good for God and good for the witness.
We need God and Gods needs us we are one.
This Earthly realm is but a filter for the characteristics God does not want in his new Kingdom. The filter is fine but removes the jealousy, envy, greed, rivalry, rebelliousness and lack of appreciation that was prevalent in his first kingdom where Angels lead astray by Satan Gods greatest creation, turned what was to be “Heaven” into a contaminated, unbalanced place.
Satan and his followers were than sent out of Heaven and Satan than took his revenge by setting on destroying us mortals whom he saw as rivals of Gods attentions .
Satans mission is to discredit God and show that he is not all that perfect and by leading us astray and away from god he feels is a woth while effort.
We are the factors in the struggle between good and evil, faith and unbelief.
God may get his perfect Kingdom after all, with the assistance of Satan who’s characteristics Gods wishes to remove from us.
The angels were given everything without having to go through the filter of life this gave some of them a sense of entitlement and lack of appreciation and grace that God had intended for them.
We mortals having gone through the filter of life are much more likely to have the traits Gods appreciates.
The first will be last the last will be first, a blessing is a curse and a curse a blessing be glad you are being fulfilled here for being fulfilled here is a distraction from focusing on the eternal hereafter.
The finer the filter the finer the metal.
when we say God needs us, has completely forgotten that God is The Sovereign King Who already has a Kingdom even before creation. think of it this way. The Super-Immense, All-Powerful, All-Knowing God, one day says, “Let’s make…” it was a creative act that was not dependent on His creation. did He know the outcome of His creation even before He started to pick up the dust and form it? Of course, He did. but He proceeded with His project, anyway, because it pleased Him!
we know the story. His creation started killing each other. He gave them rules. they rejected it.
He sent His Son to remind them of His love. they killed Him, too! despite that, He continued pouring His goodness, grace and mercy to these corrupted beings after He took His Son back into the Kingdom. to some who understood, He deposited His Spirit so they would remain in love with Him (first of all) and with each other, and gave them commands so they can continue to represent His Son while yet on earth, and hopefully, lovingly convince some more of the corrupted beings about the love of God.
The Sovereign King has left us with a job and a mission which we MUST fulfill. but He guarantees us success if we use His resources and do things His way, and will not judge us for the outcome of our efforts, but rather, if we had obeyed Him or not.
everything through this, He has foreknown before they happened.
where, in this picture, can we see The King needing us?
in short, it is good to apply proper hermeneutics in verses or books before using them as justifications in saying God is not self-sufficient.
Tremendous things here. I am very happy to peer your post. Thank you a lot and I’m having a look forward to touch you. Will you please drop me a mail?